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When did courtesy go out of style?

  • Sep. 14th, 2008 at 6:58 PM
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Friedrich and I had a chat this weekend about this, and I'd love to hear what the rest of you think on this.

As children, it was drilled into us to behave in certain ways in public. Use your manners, don't push and shove, don't eat and talk at the same time, don't throw a fit if you can't get what you want, etc. What happened? I constantly see people, from the very young, to the very old, act in ways that are just plain rude and nasty.

Case in point - this weekend at the Monterey Bay Aquarium. Adult humans behaving like small mammals with attitude. Pushing past each other, standing in the middle of everything, taking pictures of other people standing in the middle of everything. Giving you dirty looks if you walked between the two. Giving you dirty looks if you stood there looking at them, waiting for them to finish. One pair nearly ran over Dolly on the way to the aquarium. When I told Dolly to walk in front of me so as to be less likely to be run over, one of the women turned and said, "I wouldn't have run over your little girl." Hmmm, I think that odd, considering that you went around me moving like a freight train, and had I not said something, you probably wouldn't have seen her. Perhaps I am overly aware of personal space (one of the things my mom was a HUGE stickler about), but I still don't enjoy having someone blow by me like a semi on the highway. I also consider it my personal responsibility to make my child aware of those around her, so she isn't unintentionally rude. By training my child to think of others, as well as herself, I'm giving her the tools to have a smoother path through life, by not annoying her fellow man.

People letting their children act horribly, too. The child who nearly broke limbs on Dolly and I, when he decided he needed to hit the revolving door at top speed while we were in it. He then proceeded to be extremely rude as he crammed us through the contraption so he could shoot out the other side. He was then followed by his mother and two sisters, who ran into me while looking at the wildlife. We dodged this crew not once, not twice, but three times, while trying to enjoy the exhibit. We made every effort to be somewhere they were not, they were that unaware and obnoxious. Later, someone's young child wandered up to me, without a parent in sight, and started trying to force Dolly and I do what he wanted with an exhibit.

Here's where my questions are: Am I TOO polite? Are we handicapping our child by making her use her good manners? Do we need to let our child run amok, so she can "be like the other kids?" Do I need to shut off the voices in my head that tell me that knocking someone down to get to what I want is wrong, and just go for it, like so many other people? Because, quite frankly, being a polite human seems to be an oddity these days. I see a lot more people being totally unaware of those around them and thundering over others in the herd than I see people being kind enough to hold a door, an elevator, etc.

Maybe I'm just too aware of my surroundings, and the people in them. Maybe I need to tune out a little more, and be happier for it...

Finally, an odd moment, and my view:
Coming back to our room in the hotel, we saw a women, in a bathrobe, sitting in the floor of the hallway. We couldn't tell what she was doing there, as she was sort of hunched over, almost as if she was in tears or something. When we got a little closer, she sort of looked up at me and said, "Hello." I asked if she was ok. She didn't answer - because she was sitting there talking on her CELL PHONE. OK, does anyone else find it odd that you'd think it better to sit in the floor of the hall and talk on your phone, in a bathrobe, than to stay in your room and maybe hang out in the bathroom, if you're worried about disturbing someone else in your room? No way on earth you'd catch me sitting in the hall in a bathrobe, let alone to talk on the cell. Eep. Either I'm super old fashioned, or people are just weird...

Comments

( 18 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]centaur11 wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 02:29 am (UTC)
All I can say is that it's a shame when parents don't or can't teach their children manners, courtesy and respect. It makes me wonder what the world is coming to...
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 02:32 am (UTC)
I think I now know what the inside of the handbasket to hell looks like...
[info]channel6 wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 02:53 am (UTC)
The death of civility has been the topic of a good number of articles in the past few years. You aren't the only one to notice it nor the only one to find it disturbing.

The only way to fight it is to continue to teach the children we come in contact with (especially your own) manners and civility.

I see children act in public in ways that make my hair curl--and then I see the exact behavior in adults.

Sigh...
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 04:57 am (UTC)
Yep - which makes me wonder, who raised these people? Did they spring fully formed from the buttocks of their parents? How do you get to be in your 40's or more, have lived through the times we all did, and still have no concept of correct behavior? Or older? Did some of these people abandon good manners at some point because they had lost their meaning?
[info]joycebre wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 03:03 am (UTC)
my son noticed this the other weekend when we were ar the aquarium (got to see the great white!)
lot's of screaming amped up children - lots of pushing, not much manners. I correct other people's kids nowadays. (nicely) and I don't make eye contact with the parents, so they can't give me dirty looks for teaching their kids a few manners.
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 05:00 am (UTC)
I've tried to avoid that situation. The one this weekend that was all over me with the mouth full of pretzel (and it's funny how I can tolerate that sort of thing with my own kid, but not someone else's), I wanted to physically push him away from me. I actually sort of leaned away from the flying crumb cloud and said, "Good heavens!" rather loudly. His parents were sitting on a bench behind me, and finally said something along the lines of, "Don't push." Sheesh, get that one on a leash, please...
[info]gurdymonkey wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 03:09 am (UTC)
On a positive note - and this is after the "Where did you get your hat?" lady. A mother and daughter stopped to watch me play, at least waited until I got through the piece and then asked about the gurdy. The kid leaned closer when I opened the lid and the mother told her not to, at which point I said, "It's OK to look, just don't touch," and shifted the way I was holding the instrument so she could see better. Mom gave daughter a dollar to put in my bowl too.

Still, there are days I wish I owned a tazer.
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 04:57 am (UTC)
Hoorah for well-mannered parents and children. And no, you don't need a tazer. You need an electric cattle prod. Much longer reach...
[info]goldenstag wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 03:44 am (UTC)
There are many things that have contributed to these changes in behavior in society as a whole ... I am sure a sociologist could do a better job, but I have noticed (and please keep in mind that these are generalizations -- there are still exceptions):
  • People don't teach their kids -- anything -- they want the schools (or someone -- anyone else) to do it, because they "don't have the time"
  • Many parents these days weren't taught to be polite by their parents
  • There are few consequences if people aren't polite anymore
  • The internet (EMail, blogs, journals, newsgroups, etc.) have given rise to an anonymous society where even if you know the people you're having a conversation with, it's easy to hide behind the screen
  • The internet (again) -- many people interact less with others in "the real world" ...
  • Cell phone technology has had a similar effect on the current teens -- with text messaging, they don't even talk to each other -- they can be in the same room, and text ...
  • There's probably a lot more causes ...

It's been happening for awhile. In Disneyland, for example, parents pushing strollers are a menace -- they run into people, often intentionally. My wife had to threaten someone once because she banged into her ankles more than once ...
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 05:09 am (UTC)
Yes, I've noticed the internet as screen thing going for a while. I feel like a dinosaur, when it comes to the internet thing. Long ago, I was on newsgroup on the local server that was only available "in domain." It was called mudd.flame. You can guess the purpose. The whole point of arguing anything on there was to do so, within the HMC honor code, and make a good argument, not just name calling. I was one of the the few women willing to play, and odder still, one from off the Mudd campus (I'm odd and geeky, what can I say?). I'd, as we said at the time, don my asbestos panties, and wade in. Most of us knew each other. We'd have rather heated, sometimes nasty, and sometimes down right awful arguments. Once in a while someone would throw the, "stupid woman from off campus" argument, and they'd get torched by someone else. *LOL* But, at the base of it all, was an acknowledged set of rules and courtesies. On the internet. At a sciences school full of men and women who could seriously lack in the social skills. With the professors joining in, no less.

You're right - there are few, if any, negative consequences to being rude any more. Shy of calling someone a nasty name during a job interview, people get away with stuff now they never would have in earlier times.

The Disney thing - I've come to the conclusion that it is easier for me to visit the happiest place on earth with a group of friends, rather than my family. Why? Because, when I'm there just as me, not as a mom, people acting like complete asshats is a whole lot easier to cope with. When they're irritating my spouse, and ruining the experience for all of us, including the child, the momma bear just can't enjoy herself. Too deep a desire to lay waste to the stupid people irritating the hell out of all of us. *LOL* So, I go with my friends for a visit, and the family goes a little less often. Friedrich is not thrilled with the place, as there are always WAY too many people for him (he is not good with too much noise, or too big a crowd, period), and it's extra hard when we both get irritated and just feed of the grump in each other. *LOL*
[info]ldyanna wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 02:51 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure you can be too polite, unless it involves letting people run all over you in the process.

I'm one of those who is super aware of how what I am doing effects others. Sometimes it is a pain to be that way. We are trying to do the same with Josh - teaching him that there are others out there and he needs to make sure his fun doesn't interfer with theirs.

Goldenstag is right, there is no longer any consequences for being rude. Used to be public opinion held people in check, now not so much....
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 05:16 pm (UTC)
*HUGS* That's why you and I get along as well as we do. We're both aware that how we behave might have an effect on other people. *LOL* We're also both control freaks, but that's a whole other discussion. ;)

Yeah, there are very few consequences for people with no manners. It used to be, if you couldn't get along and behave nicely, you didn't get asked to go to parties and such. Now that bad behavior has become the norm, everyone is just up for whoever is the most "fun" regardless of how rotten they can be along the way. They're all running like a wolf pack. *snort*
[info]channel6 wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 03:27 pm (UTC)
Here's something I see as a nanny--the parents seem to expect ME to do all the manners and politeness education. More than one set of them now seem to allow all sorts of rude behavior from their angels while expecting ME to be the bully and enforce the politeness rules.

How can I teach them anything if their parents don't back it up by expecting the same thing?

Bleh....
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 05:13 pm (UTC)
Ah, this one I get. It's that "I want my kids to love me, and I don't want to have to be the bad guy" crap.

Folks, I'm of the firm belief that when you give birth to a child, you are not there to be their friend. You're there to be their PARENT. Parenting involves rules and boundries, and making your kid(s) accountable. You are not there to be their buddy, their confidant, etc. If they feel close to you, and want to share, bonus. I love the fact that Dolly wants me around to play with, etc., but she also knows that I'm the mom. I make rules and I expect them to get followed, or she'll suffer the consequences.

Lots of folks, for whatever reason, see being their friend as more important than being their parent, and that's where a lot of this stuff goes wrong. No one is going to train your kid like you can train your kid, so stop mucking about and just do the job.

Yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir here - most of the folks who read this either have kids and know their job, or chose not to have children, for a variety of reasons. Regardless of your parenting status, spread the word that folks who have kids need to be parents. If they aren't willing to do the job, they need to give their kids to someone who will, and that is NOT the schools, the church, or any other group...
[info]ermine_rat wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 08:41 pm (UTC)
Peersonal space is a vanishing concept, and so many venues are now pushed to capacity, or well beyond the capacity that they were originally intended for. This makes any outinginto public increasingly unpleasant for me. I don't know what can be done about it. I share the same thoughts about making my kid rude and agressive so he can get his share of whatever is being competed for, or should I have him imitate a more passive and polite approach and have him be constantly taken advantage of? There doesn't seem like alot of middle ground, does there?
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 15th, 2008 11:36 pm (UTC)
No, there doesn't seem to be a good middle ground. I mean, how do you teach people to be selectively rude, or only have good manners at certain times? It's just not in my skill set. *LOL*

As for going out in public - yes, things are overcrowded. Restaurants actually do this on purpose, as do stores. All part of making it look busy and popular. Some places, like Disneyland, never anticipated having the hordes they get these days, and have only done so much to combat it. After all, more people = more money.

Maybe that's part of the problems these days - too many people and groups concerned with making more money, and less concerned with creating a pleasant experience or atmosphere...
[info]helblonde wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 01:24 am (UTC)
There's a long distance between Dominant and Doormat
The opposite of polite is not aggressive; it's rude. One may be polite and still forceful in getting what one wants, just as one may be rude and passive*.

If my mom was anything to go on - and I think she did a pretty good job, if I do say so myself -, then the key to teaching this stuff to your kid is to support good self esteem and be a good example.

"A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally." - Oscar Wilde

* Like the folks who will call you a nasty name but then not own it when they're called on their rudeness.
[info]allergicone wrote:
Sep. 16th, 2008 04:22 pm (UTC)
Re: There's a long distance between Dominant and Doormat
You're right. One of the downfalls of how I was raised was that aggressive=rude in my mother's book. Still does, pretty much, in mine, although I think I've learned to be a bit more assertive in my middle age. *grin*

I'm just going to have to work at teaching Dolly that it's ok to ask for what you want, so long as you do so in a polite way. "Gimme that" isn't polite. *LOL*

One the hardest lessons I've had to learn as an adult - how to ask for what I want... I spent so long thinking it just wasn't appropriate.
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